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Building a $2M Portfolio While Raising 2 Kids w/ Maria Friström

Maria Friström is an investor, designer, mother, and business owner from Finland, and she’s one of the only few people that can match Brandon Turner in height. Maria was working in Silicon Valley before she voluntarily left her position to build an empire of her own. She took her down payment savings for a primary residence and on a whim bought a rental property in Fort Collins, Colorado.

She and her husband then decided to move to Finland to raise their children. Through some challenging life events, Maria was left heartbroken and grief-stricken, with a business that became a full-time job for her. She wanted to express her creativity via design, so they decided to move back to America to flip their first rental property in Colorado.

Maria’s inspiring story is a testament to how real estate investing can pull you out of financial, emotional, and mental depths. She has built a real estate empire worth well over two million dollars and has the financial freedom to spend time where she wants, with who she wants, doing what she wants.

Brandon:
This is the BiggerPockets Podcast, show 549.

Maria:
It was a dark time for me. My husband’s like, “What do you dream of? What would you want to do?” And I had lost myself again, like completely, and I still don’t know who I’ll be after losing her, I’m still working on that. And I’m like, “You know what? That house that we bought six years ago in Fort Collins, I’ve always dreamt about designing that.”

Brandon:
What’s going on, everyone? It’s Brandon Turner, host of the BiggerPockets Podcast, here once again in Las Vegas, Nevada for a live podcast recording, but David Greene is not in Nevada, sadly. He is in California. What’s up, David?

David:
Not much, brother. I’m a little jealous, you’re in a 7500-square-foot suite.

Brandon:
I’m still here. People who listened to the show a week ago would be like, “Wow, Brandon’s been there for a week?” No, we are recording both these episodes in one day, which means I still don’t have a voice today, because I lost it yelling in a Nashville bar last couple days ago. So, anyway, today’s show, speaking of… I don’t know how to connect that to Nashville bar, but speaking of great shows, we’ve had a lot of them lately, and today is just another phenomenal one in a great line of shows here on the BiggerPockets Podcast, the show where we teach people how to invest in real estate so they can obtain the ideal life, or at least a more ideal life than what they maybe have right now. So, in other words, we’re going to teach you financial freedom, we’re going to teach you literacy, how to set goals, all that stuff.

Brandon:
And specifically on today’s show, we’re talking with a good friend of mine, Maria [Fristrom 00:01:37], who’s actually here in Vegas, and we’re sitting down, chatting with her about how she got into real estate, her ability to do it from a very long distance. You’ll hear more about that, because she is not actually from America originally. You’re going to hear about a really heartbreaking and also inspirational story. I think it was the first time in 549 episodes that we’ve had that I’ve cried and a guest has cried, so that’s a new thing today. And you’re going to hear a lot about financing and more, so all that and more to come. But first, let’s get to today’s [crosstalk 00:02:18] quick tip.

David:
Quick tip.

Brandon:
Yeah, my voice. I can’t do the highs. That’s like when I lose my voice, which happens every time I go to a conference, I lose the highs. But today’s quick tip is brought to you by David Greene. Throwing it on you David, again, one last time.

David:
Today’s quick tip is try to find any way that you spend energy, time, money, anything, in a way that will get you a return. So, Brandon, you are in Las Vegas right now, spending a decent chunk of change to rent out an awesome suite. Now, to most people, that is a frivolous expense, it’s lost revenue, it’s money you don’t have it anymore. But you’re doing it in a way that’s going to bring enough value to investors and yourself that it should pay for the suite and then some. This is actually an investment for you. So you don’t have to deny yourself of everything you love, you don’t have to spend every single day avoiding that cup of coffee you want to try to save up enough money that in 12 years you can finally get the car payment. There’s actually a way to get the things you want in life and make sure that they earn you a return, so try to train your brain to look for, “If I spend this money on something, how can I make sure that I get a return back on that?”

Brandon:
All right, that was a good quick tip. That kind of reminds me, when I moved up to Hawaii, a friend told me… I was like, “Well, it’s really expensive there and taxes are high.” He’s like, “Listen, when you’re in that environment, in the good weather, and you’re happy, and there’s people coming all the time, and there’s awesome people visiting. Do you think you could earn more than what you’re paid in taxes to live in that state?” And I’m like, “Oh yeah, probably.” And it’s totally been true, so that’s a good example there.

David:
Great example.

Brandon:
Thank you. Now I think it’s time to get into the interview with my good friend Maria Fristrom.

Brandon:
Maria, welcome to the BiggerPockets Podcast. How you doing?

Maria:
Thank you. Thanks for inviting me.

Brandon:
Yeah.

Maria:
Especially after I totally insulted you the first time we met.

Brandon:
Did you?

Maria:
Yeah.

Brandon:
I don’t remember this at all.

Maria:
I knew you wouldn’t remember. So, it was two years ago in Nashville, [inaudible 00:04:04] con, first one around. And I end up at a dinner with you, at the same table, and at this dinner, you quite vulnerably… Is that word?

Brandon:
Yes, yes, yes.

Maria:
In a vulnerable way, share something about you, and that is that you hate your voice.

Brandon:
Okay.

Maria:
Okay.

Brandon:
This is true.

Maria:
So, yeah.

Brandon:
This is true. [crosstalk 00:04:22] Especially when [inaudible 00:04:22].

Maria:
Fast forward, the day after you have your keynote, and after you come up to me, and you’re like, “All right, so what do you think? How did it go?” And I’m like, “Well, it was great. If only your voice wasn’t so terrible.” And, I mean, what the hell? [crosstalk 00:04:40]

Brandon:
You’re a horrible person. Horrible.

Maria:
But you laughed, because I knew you would laugh.

Brandon:
And you know what that led to? Me leaving the BiggerPockets podcast. It all started then, that was when the journey started. It wasn’t David. I told you that day, I said, “Today, I’m going to give my two years’ notice on the podcast,” and that’s how it all end. It was your fault that I’m leaving. So if anybody’s wondering why my episodes are coming to an end soon, now we know.

Maria:
Sorry guys.

Brandon:
It’s okay. [crosstalk 00:05:02]

David:
You know what, Maria? That was karma coming Brandon’s way, and I appreciate you being the delivery system for that, because the first time that Brandon and I hung out, we were actually in Canada, and we sat down, and he said, “There’s a lot of things you got going for you, David, but you really need to learn some weight and learn how to dress.” That was the-

Brandon:
I did not say that.

Maria:
No way.

David:
He denies it to this day, but…

Brandon:
I did not say it that way. I simply said, “If you didn’t wear pajamas to a millionaire club, you might build some better relationships.” It was something like that, and…

Maria:
But you like to hear it up straight. You don’t like to have yes men around you, David. [crosstalk 00:05:35]

David:
Yeah, that’s why we became friends. I like this guy, but he did call me fat and slovenly dressed, so I do like that you gave Brandon a taste of his own medicine for me. And ever since then, he’s probably developed a little bit of class when he’s delivering his insults.

Brandon:
Yeah, maybe a little bit. Well, anyway, thank you for coming today. I do feel a little weird, because I was watching the YouTube version of this. It is very rare that I am looking shorter than the person next to me, and even more rare when that person is non-male. [crosstalk 00:06:03]

Maria:
Non-male, I’m going to start using that. That’s good.

Brandon:
Non-male. You are tall. You’re not actually tall as me, but you sit way more upright than I do.

Maria:
It’s my ballet background.

Brandon:
There you go. All right, so let’s get into your background, but not your ballet background. How did you get into real estate investing?

Maria:
I’m kind of a monkey. I’ve been all over. I’ve lived in four countries and worked in four countries over three continents. I changed my career.

David:
Do monkeys travel a lot? Is that- [crosstalk 00:06:31]

Maria:
The monkey gym, you know? It’s like the kids’ kind of career nowadays. They go from one job to another. [crosstalk 00:06:37]

David:
Like swinging from gig to gig. Okay, okay, I got it. I got you.

Maria:
Yeah. So, I’ve changed my career majorly three times before I got into real estate investing full time.

David:
What else did you do?

Maria:
So, I’ve done physical therapy in Finland, I’ve been a golf coach in Hong Kong. I do not play golf, that’s a story for another time. And I’ve worked at a brand experience agency in Stockholm, Sweden, and the last job that I had was I worked five years at a comms agency, that’s a creative communications agency in Silicon Valley, in California. And I mean, it was a job I got to work with such amazing people, super smart, some of the world’s biggest brands, thought leaders, creatives, and I loved it, but then one day, in 2015, I found myself in the massage room of that company, and I’m stuck to this machine that’s just sucking the beauty and the glory out of me. [crosstalk 00:07:38] And it was a breast pump. So, I’m sitting there, and I have a tube top on that’s like a hands-free type of thing. I don’t know if you’ve seen it anywhere, but…

David:
Sure, I’ve seen them.

Maria:
Right?

David:
Yep.

Maria:
So I’m able to type at the same time, because I couldn’t take 15 minutes off just to do nothing. So, I’m sitting there.

David:
You got to be productive.

Maria:
Ah, yeah. So milk splaying everywhere, it’s on the computer.

Brandon:
Geez.

Maria:
And I’m like… At the same time, my five-month-old baby, he’s at some sort of $2000-a-month baby kennel, and I’m like, “What am I doing this jungle?” Right? So at that moment, I had bought my first property at that point, but that was-

David:
In the US? Or…

Maria:
In the US.

David:
Okay.

Maria:
And so that was the defining moment where I’m like, “Okay, I need to do something about my freedom, and real estate is the way that I’m going to go about doing that.”

David:
Yeah, okay.

Brandon:
What’d you buy? Was that just a house you lived in, then?

Maria:
Well, no. That would be too easy.

David:
That would be too easy.

Maria:
So, to give you a little bit of background, my husband and I, we both come from very regular families. He’s number five out of 10 kids, and I come from a big family, we’re four kids. And at one point, my mom, she’s physically disabled, so we had a hard time at moments. At one point, we couldn’t afford milk, so we had to make milk out of powder. So, just to give you a little bit of background there. So [inaudible 00:09:03] my husband and I, for like 10 to 15 years, we’d been saving up, working away, renting ourselves, and saving up our money to buy our own home, and at this point we’re like 34. And so one day, I’m like, “Hey, honey. Instead of buying our own home, I’m going to buy this house, sight unseen, in this place called Fort Collins, Colorado,” and we live in California. “And we’re going to put all of our savings into it, is that cool?”

Brandon:
Why Fort Collins? Why’d you pick that?

Maria:
So, it all start with… I had a financial advisor that I got through work, who’s amazing, thank you, Josh. He advised me that, “You’re getting killed on taxes, you need to do something about that.” And he had some properties in Fort Collins, and so I looked into Fort Collins. So I did a few things. I did my due diligence. I’m like, “Is this a place that people like to live in?” And it hit all kinds of top 10 lists, best place to retire, happiest people.

Brandon:
Yeah, it’s constantly rated there. Yeah.

Maria:
Yeah. And definitely had… What do you call it? Positive, people are moving in more than moving out, so it’s a growing place. There’s a university, and…

Brandon:
Do you know that’s where I met Heather, was in Fort Collins?

Maria:
That’s right, I think you’ve told me. [crosstalk 00:10:14]

Brandon:
Yeah. We met and we went on a date, our first date was to Big City Burrito, I think it was, in Fort Collins. It’s downtown by the… Yeah.

Maria:
I haven’t been.

Brandon:
It was cute. Anyway, keep going. Fort Collins, good place.

Maria:
So, magical place. [crosstalk 00:10:25]

Brandon:
Magical things happen in Fort Collins.

Maria:
So, basically, since I lived in California, I had gone there just randomly for business, went to Denver. I extended that trip, went to Fort Collins, and I met with the realtor, and he helped me look at some property. So it sounds really easy when I’m like, “Oh, and then I just bought this property and bought it,” but it took, I think, a couple years before I actually put something on the contract. This was… Was it six years ago? The market was hot. I bought it from a investor who was exiting because he thought it was too hot, but I wasn’t even on the train. So I’m like, “This is a deal for me.” It cash flowed a little, like 100 bucks a month, but I saw the potential, and for me, number one was tax reasons. So I bought it, sight unseen.

Brandon:
Bought it.

Maria:
But that was like the number five property that I put offers on, so it was a hot market back then, too.

David:
What was the hubby thinking at this point?

Maria:
Well, you know what? At this point, I think he was too busy with his work and his career that he’s just like, “You know what? I think I trust you and I’m a little afraid, but okay, let’s do it.” Yeah.

Brandon:
Can you share a little bit about, you said you bought it for tax purposes, how that worked out?

Maria:
Yeah, so we made pretty good money in California, and David, as you know, the taxes are pretty high there. Ouch. So, we had zero things that we could write off, because we didn’t have kids at that point and we didn’t own anything, so now that we owned property, we were able to write that part off.

Brandon:
Yeah, yeah. There’s a lot of benefits. I mean, I know people who deliberately just buy real estate just to offset their taxes. I was talking to a guy the other day who makes a ton of money online, and he’s also a real estate guy. And he said he just works backwards every year to buy the amount of real estate needed to make sure his tax bill is zero. [crosstalk 00:12:23]

Maria:
Yeah, I do that, too.

Brandon:
It’s the whole depreciation. Do you? Yeah. [crosstalk 00:12:25]

Maria:
Yeah, so I focus… Yep.

Brandon:
That’s funny.

Maria:
I do spend a lot of time on tax optimization and being smart about that, so I actually got taxes at refund this year, yeah.

Brandon:
Wow, look at you.

Maria:
Yeah. [crosstalk 00:12:36] It’s weird.

Brandon:
I know. When I was not buying a lot of real estate, this is like four or five years ago, I was just making money from BiggerPockets, book sales and whatever else, and then there was a year I didn’t buy hardly anything. Yeah, I had like a $100,000 tax bill or some crazy amount like that. I was like, “This is nuts.” And then now, ever since I started really heavily, three years ago, buying a lot of real estate, now I pay zero taxes and make a lot more. Which again, that’s the thing David and I… David, you’ve been stressing, is we don’t want to tell the world that, we want to keep it a secret. But this is like an investor club.

Maria:
Whoops.

Brandon:
Yeah, you don’t get the rest of the world to listen to this podcast, it’s okay. This clip will not go on social media. We do not want the world to know how good this is.

David:
It’s more so that I don’t like it being portrayed like we’re gloating that we don’t have to pay taxes, that you’re actually acknowledging that there’s work and risk that’s going into this, and the trade-off is you can avoid tax if you do it right. [crosstalk 00:13:22]

Brandon:
Correct.

Maria:
Yeah, and can I add to that, David? I believe it might’ve been Ryan Holiday who talked about that. He’s trying to change his mind about taxes that he actually enjoys paying them, and that’s one thing that I worked on. So even though I try to optimize them, I still try to find joy in paying it, especially in Finland where you see where it goes, where you actually get free education healthcare and especially as in the past couple years I’ve used the ambulance a couple times, and just giving birth is just something that makes you appreciate that.

Brandon:
That makes sense, yeah. So what happened after that? You bought that first property, where’d you go next?

Maria:
Yeah, so after my lactation epiphany there in Silicon Valley…

Brandon:
Maybe that’s the title. That’s the title of the episode, “The Lactation Epiphany.” That could be your book.

Maria:
Yeah.

Brandon:
You could write a book and call it that.

Maria:
Can you? Do you want to write a book with me?

Brandon:
We’re going to write a book called “Lactation Epiphany.”

Maria:
Yeah, let’s do it.

David:
What about “Lactation Imagination”? “How my mind was opened during this event.”

Brandon:
Yeah.

Maria:
That sounds like a band.

Brandon:
Yeah, it kind of does, actually. It’s like Imagine Dragons but… Yeah, you’re right.

Maria:
Yeah.

Brandon:
Keep going, all right.

Maria:
That’s my son’s favorite band.

Brandon:
Is it really?

Maria:
Yeah. So, after lactation epiphany, we moved back to Finland.

Brandon:
Okay.

Maria:
And that meant that I had to quit my job that I loved and made good money from, and all of a sudden I find myself in the burbs of Helsinki. I’m… No, I don’t want to say jobless, because being a mom is hard work, so I was income-less, and I have an eight-month-old and I was pregnant again. So that was lonely, I felt so lonely, and I kind of lost myself, lost my identity, because I had that tied up in the identity.

David:
Diapers? Yeah.

Maria:
Yes, yeah. But it was tied to my identity of being the account manager at this [inaudible 00:15:14] and driving my fancy car and eating out and [inaudible 00:15:17]. So, I’m like, “Ugh.” So I had to make up for it, so quickly I’m like, “I need, all right, real estate investing. All right. That was my plan. I’m going to do it.” So I started doing it from the money sample, and I’m like, “I’m going to make as much passively through real estate that I did through my job,” to make up the salary. So I started hustling, and in a couple years, I built a two… Multimillion sounds so much better. But it was- [crosstalk 00:15:53]

Brandon:
Multimillion dollar, okay.

Maria:
Yeah, a two million dollar portfolio at the same time as I had our second and third baby, and I started a real estate investing company during that time, as well. And have you ever seen a hamster wheel?

Brandon:
Sure.

Maria:
But the hamster’s dead? The wheel’s turning, but the hamster’s dead? [crosstalk 00:16:19]

Brandon:
[inaudible 00:16:18]

Maria:
Yeah, so I was like, “Wham, doosh, wham, doosh, wham, doosh.” Just going the motions, and the kids were in daycare from like 8:00 to 5:00, my husband was traveling 150 days, and I’m like, “Dude.” I got some level of freedom, because I had a pretty nice portfolio and we did well, but I had completely lost it, because I’d built the job for myself, so I was kind of miserable again.

David:
Yeah.

Brandon:
Alright, so before we go in the next phase then, of how you maybe solved that, or you didn’t, we’ll find out, stay tuned. But first, a word from our… I’m kidding, no. So, what was this portfolio like? I mean, where was it at, what were you buying, what types were you buying, what made up that $2 million?

Maria:
Yeah, I started buying in Finland.

David:
Okay.

Maria:
Right? So that was a brand new market for me. I hadn’t lived in Finland, so I was born in Finland, but I only lived there five years and then my family moved to Sweden, so I knew nothing. I had no network. I hadn’t lived there for ten years at that point, and so I started looking into… I read a ton of books and did what they told me to do. So, one of the things they said was, “Buy apartments in good places that are small and rentable,” and I bought my first one in a satellite city to Helsinki, like a downtown.

Brandon:
Okay, yup.

Maria:
Yeah. And I was income-less, or a stay at home mom at this point, so going to the bank was interesting, because awesome candidate for getting a loan, not.

Brandon:
Yeah. How did that go? I mean, what are loans like to buy in Finland? I know that doesn’t benefit most of our audience, but I’m just curious. Like, what is it like to get a mortgage? What kind of loans do they give? What’s it like?

Maria:
Yeah, so it’s kind of the same as here. So even though it’s a very different market in many ways, the principles are the same. And even when it comes to banking, the one thing that will piss people off that I do have to mention, though, is two thinks. Closing can be done in like two days in Finland.

Brandon:
Really?

Maria:
Yes. We don’t have all that paperwork. The other thing is I pay like 0.7.

Brandon:
Like interest?

Maria:
Interest rate.

Brandon:
0.7?

Maria:
Yeah, for a 20- to 25-year-old.

Brandon:
Yeah. Year, yeah. That’s incredibly low. I’ve heard of negative interest rates in… Denmark went negative, right? But I thought, I got a 2.9 another day on an apartment complex, but 0.7. That’s- [crosstalk 00:18:49]

Maria:
Yeah, so basically it is negative, but what you pay for is the margin, the part that the bank makes money off, right?

Brandon:
Yeah, okay. Yeah.

Maria:
Yeah.

Brandon:
Crazy. Is that just because they’re trying to get more people to buy? Is this just an incentive to get… So that keeps it really, really low? [crosstalk 00:19:03]

Maria:
Yeah, and it’s not just a Finland thing, it’s a Europe thing, because the Finnish banking system is driven by the European Central Bank.

Brandon:
Okay. Yeah, so you buy these properties, so what’d you end up? Did you save it through the down payment for them or did you get a little more creative?

Maria:
Yeah, I had to get creative, right? Because I didn’t have my job anymore. And so I started consulting, that was one. So I got a little bit of income from that, started a consultancy. And then I pitched it to partners, so I’ve gotten money in three different ways that I can go through a little later if you want to.

Brandon:
Sure.

Maria:
But this was number one, so I knew that I needed… Was it 20? Or maybe in dollars, it was $30,000. So, I pitched it to my brother and to my husband. But my brother sees me as this surfer girl who calls him from Bali 20 years ago going like, “Hey, dude, I’m all out of money. Can you send me some?” That’s how he remembers me, so I’m like, “How can I change that belief?” So I spend a while to think about, “Okay, who is he? Who’s my husband? Both of them are, they’ve got good jobs, but they’re engineers.” So I’m like, “I’m going to talk to them in their love language, which is Excel.”

Brandon:
Yes.

Maria:
So here’s what I did. I created an Excel, and it was massive. On one side, my brother also invests in the stock market.

Brandon:
Okay, yep.

Maria:
So on one side, I put his return. I took, “All right, so if you invest in the stock market here, the average return over a few years is this,” or even just a name index-level return. And I pulled that over five, 10, 15, up to 30 years. On the right hand side of that, I showed what he would be making if he instead invested that money in me and my real estate investing, so calculated, used some metrics like appreciation and obviously the use of leverage, how that impacts the cash flow and inflation and that sort of things. So I had a few things that I added in. So instead of saying, “Hey, dude, can you lend your sis 20K?” I was like…

Brandon:
Yeah. Which is how most people treat it. Like, yes.

Maria:
Right? But I’m like, “This is a business acquisition.” So I pitched him not as the sister, or my husband as the wife, but as the business owner.

Brandon:
Yeah, business investment.

Maria:
Yeah. So I showed him, “Here’s how much more you’ll be making with me, as opposed to…”

Brandon:
What I want to applaud here is just this important idea of love languages, right? Or certain people… There’s a book called the, what? “Five Love Languages,” right?

Maria:
Yeah.

Brandon:
And some people respond different ways. Like, there’s physical touch, and some people like gift-giving or receiving gifts, and there’s different love languages when it comes to relationships. The same is true for when you pitch an investor.

Maria:
Yeah, any meeting, really.

Brandon:
Yeah, any meeting. Like, there is a way that people want to receive information and a way people want to deliver information. And so, knowing your investor, knowing your audience… Like, you said they were an engineer. They like Excel, they like that data. And so that’s a great way to pitch it. And then if you were talking to somebody that was not that side, which I would guess that, I don’t know, 80% of people are probably not that way, I would guess, right? If you’re not an engineer or a math nerd, you’re probably more of a, “Show me some pretty charts and colors and graphs.”

Maria:
Yep.

Brandon:
It makes people feel really good, which is why one reason on the BiggerPockets calculators we do both, right? We have the bottom, we have all the details, but the top, it’s like, “Here’s pretty colors.” And it sounds stupid, but either way, when you appeal to somebody in their love language or their investing language, I don’t know if there’s a name for that, their cash flow language, then yeah, your chance of getting a deal accepted or a partner brought in is just so much greater. And it’s like how you do anything is how you do everything.

Maria:
Yep.

Brandon:
And so you put the effort in to even learn how they react, but also it’s actually, “Know your numbers,” and then they’re more likely. So I’m guessing the end of the story is your brother brought some cash.

Maria:
Yeah.

Brandon:
Okay.

Maria:
I got both of them on, and later on, when I started the LLC or the investing company, they both came on.

Brandon:
That’s cool.

Maria:
As partners in that as well.

Brandon:
Okay. Yeah, and this applies to, I mean, any partnership [inaudible 00:23:16]. It doesn’t have to be family, it can be, but I think it’s even more important for family, though, to treat it that way.

Maria:
Yeah, I was just going to say. So if you’re listening to this and thinking, “Well, I don’t have a husband or a brother that has good jobs or money or whatever,” well, you don’t have to. It’s actually harder to ask family and friends to be a part of that.

Brandon:
It is super hard.

Maria:
Yeah.

Brandon:
Yeah, I would much rather pitch a random stranger, which is probably why I’ve raised, what? A hundred million dollars and I have never once pitched my family. Well, I did. My dad was on my first two deals, and it was the hardest conversation to have, like, “Dad, I’m trying to refinance a house and I can’t. Can I put you on the mortgage and then we refinance it?” He was cool with it, and now he’s got his retirement padded because of it, so it’s good for him, but that’s an awkward conversation with family.

Maria:
Yup.

Brandon:
It’s a lot easier with friends. One thing that I do, a tip I’ve shared a number of times that has always served me well is instead of directly asking people, because I’m a high I, I don’t like being rejected.

Maria:
Mm-hmm (affirmative), same.

Brandon:
I kind of do the passive aggressive way, right? For the passive way, I’m like, “Hey, do you know anybody who would be interested in learning about this?” And it gives people that opportunity to be like, “Actually, I might be interested.” But if they don’t, they’ll be like, “No, I’ll keep an ear out.” And then you know that they are saying no, but you don’t have to have the confrontation. So that’s a non-confrontational to raise money that I’ve used.

Maria:
I like that tip.

Brandon:
Yeah.

Maria:
Yeah.

David:
All the high Is out there just had little light bulbs pop over their head.

Brandon:
Yup. “That could work.” Well, that’s also why I would always tell my tenants I was a property manager. It’s a true statement, I was managing the property, I was the property manager. I also owned it, though. Well, technically it was owned by an LLC, right? And then my wife and I were the owners of the LLC. So I would say things either like, “I’m just a property manager, I’ll check with the owner.” Like, “Can I have a dog?” “I’ll check with the owner,” which meant my wife. Or, “Sorry, yeah, talked to the owner and they’re kind of a jerk. They said you couldn’t have the dog, but I’m still fighting for you, but I’ll let you know if that changes,” right? High I Brandon doesn’t have to deal with being like, “I’m the bad guy.” But David on the other hand, he’ll walk in there and be like, “Yeah, I’m the owner, and no, you can’t have your dog, and I’m taking your TV,” and then he walks out. That’s David.

Maria:
Well, okay. So let me put in a third example, because I’m even different from both of you. So, what I started doing in Finland was I noticed landlords have kind of a bad rep in Finland, right? So we’re seen as these vultures that take people’s money and all that. Like, maybe even slumlord type of situation. So, I saw an opportunity there, and then, the other opportunity that I saw, I’m like, “The apartments that are up for rent are terrible. They look like they were designed by no one.” So my business idea was like, “I want to…” And this is going to sound mushy, especially to David. He’s going to roll his eyes.

Brandon:
[inaudible 00:26:00]

Maria:
I wanted to create homes with heart and do landlording with love.

Brandon:
I like it, see?

Maria:
It has a ring to it.

Brandon:
It does, it’s good.

Maria:
So what that means is I’m actually really open and tell about who owns this apartment and who we are and tell a little bit about us and our family and-

Brandon:
That’s cool.

Maria:
…kids and all that, so yeah.

Brandon:
That’s cool.

Maria:
But it comes with the hard parts.

Brandon:
Yes. It does, it does come with… That’s when you just, “My husband said I can’t,” or “My wife says I can’t.”

David:
Yeah.

Maria:
Yeah.

Brandon:
All right, so- [crosstalk 00:26:35]

David:
Let me interject.

Brandon:
Go ahead. Please, please.

David:
Before we move on, if no one knows what we’re talking about when we say “high I,” look up, on BiggerPockets, “DISC profile,” D-I-S-C, I wrote an article for BiggerPockets that described, It’s a personality assessment that talks about the dominant traits in someone’s personality. [crosstalk 00:26:51]

Brandon:
Do you want to run through it? Just the quick, “What does each one mean?” Just so people are aware.

David:
Yeah, so they all relate to a component of a personality. We all have them, but in different people, they’re in different amounts. So, your D score is your decisiveness or your dominance, that’s how quickly you make a decision in an environment you’ve never been. These are the people that… My D score is very high, that are comfortable being in environments that we haven’t been before and making decisions, but we often act like bulls in a china store. Like, I can hurt people’s feelings without even knowing that I did it, so that’s what D traits are known for. I scores is your interactive score, this is how much you like being around people. They very much want to be liked. They’re typically our social butterflies, they’re the ones that everyone loves, they like to have fun, they make everything nice, but they can be a little more sensitive towards rejection, and they’re often not as analytical-

Maria:
Just a tad. [crosstalk 00:27:38]

David:
…by nature, right? So Is are the china that my D tends to break when I get around. Like, those are people that I can clash with if I’m not careful. Your S score is your stability score. That’s the pace that you like to experience life at and the consistency. So high S-es do not like change, they don’t like things getting thrown at them that they didn’t expect. You’ll often hear high S-es say, “Well, no one told me,” or, “I thought the plan was,” fill in the blank. That’s another one that Ds will often clash with, because I can change my mind four times in the 30 minutes about what we’re going to do. And that can be very difficult to S-es, who are getting used to what the plan’s going to be. They tend to be the most loyal people that you’ll ever work with. They don’t like conflict, they tend to smooth everything out, and they don’t speak up for themselves as often, so S-es will take abuse and take abuse and take abuse, and then finally they just snap, and you’re like, “Whoa, where did that come from?” But they’re like, “It’s been three years.”

Maria:
That’s [inaudible 00:28:34].

Brandon:
Yeah, I’m a high IS.

David:
Yeah.

Brandon:
I’m high I, high S.

David:
So Brandon isn’t going to tell me if I’m doing something that irritates him. He’s not going to want to upset us, right? So knowing that, I have to proactively dig with Brandon and say, “Hey, have I pissed you off lately?” Or “What am I doing that’s irritating you?” And he’ll be like, “Yeah, it’s not anything that…” Okay, there’s something there, I got to go a little bit more…

Maria:
Well, I gotcha, David. I’m ID, so I’m like…

Brandon:
Oh, there you go.

Maria:
Yeah.

David:
DIs and IDs tend to be the best salespeople.

Maria:
Yes.

David:
In almost ever industry, the top real estate agents or loan officers-

Brandon:
You’re right, yeah.

David:
…they’re always the greatest salespeople, because they take massive action, that’s what Ds are known for, and they love to be around people. Like, I am a good business owner but not a great salesperson, because interactions with humans wears me out. That’s probably going to come up later in this podcast, as we talk about how that shows up. And then your high C score, we have a friend Andrew Kushman, and his nickname is “High C,” because he’s super analytical. This is your conscientiousness score.

Maria:
I need him in my life.

David:
These are your analytical people. These are the ones that we all like, “Oh, thank god we have one of them.” They love spreadsheets, they love formulas, they love analyzing things. These are engineers, architects, doctors, lawyers, mechanics, people who love to kind of take the chaos of the world and create order out of it. They put a lot of attention to detail, the job they do is incredibly important to them, bookkeepers, CPAs, right? They know all these rules, but they can be a little tone deaf. Their I score is often lower, so they don’t get along with people as well. Like, this is the awkward genius that can sit in the cubicle in the back and write code that we could never understand, but they show up with pizza stains on their shirt every day and can’t understand why they don’t have a girlfriend. That’s your C score. So, you want to know more about that, I wrote an article on this for BiggerPockets. You can go check it out [inaudible 00:30:16].

Brandon:
Yeah, I’ll put a link in the show notes. I don’t know what show number this is, but whatever it is, we’ll put a link in the show notes. Biggerpockets.com/show and then the number, but I’ll look it up in a minute. All right, let’s move on. So you said here you built this portfolio, but now you’re still working a ton to manage all these properties. What came next in your story?

Maria:
Yeah, so I had lost the freedom, right? I was working away, and it was because I was afraid of giving up control, right? And…

Brandon:
Been there.

Maria:
Yeah, your story jives with me. So, then 2020 happened, and 2020 was hard for all of us, and especially for our family. And I’m going to start crying, but I love talking about this, so I hope you’re okay with me.

Brandon:
Yeah, you’ll make me cry. I know it’s coming.

Maria:
So, I got pregnant again, with our third baby, Millie, and pretty early on, we found out that it was a high risk pregnancy. So, I couldn’t be building stuff anymore, because I used to DIY. I was going to say shiz. So I used to do everything myself. So, for the first time, I had to… I had two massive projects going on at this time, my biggest flip and another project, so I had to hire it out. So my friend Jenny, who’s a GC, she took both projects on fully, and I needed to spend time with Millie, so early on, they thought that she might have something called Trisomy 13, but then in the middle of the pregnancy… I didn’t want to do the test to find out, but in the middle of the pregnancy, we found out, it was confirmed that she did in fact have Trisomy 13.

Maria:
And for you guys that don’t know what that means, they don’t live long. Yeah. So, they told us that she would probably make it for a few weeks, so we were expecting her to come, so I spent a lot of time just focusing inwards and pausing, and in October, she was born, and it was a beautiful day, but also the hardest day of my life, because her heart wasn’t beating anymore, so Millie was stillborn. And she was supposed to be our rainbow baby, and for you guys who don’t know what that means, it means the baby that comes after loss, because prior to Millie, we had lost three babies at earlier stages, and one of them was an ectopic pregnancy that almost took my life. So, it had been a couple rough years, and for the first time, I needed to be brave for Millie, to give her a chance, and she made us-

Maria:
(silence)

Maria:
What’s that called? Like, not an empty nest syndrome, but empty arms syndrome. So, my arms ached, so I needed to do something, so art helped me. So, I’m like, “Fort Collins, Colorado.” And that was a big thing for us. Our lives were in Finland at this point, and my husband’s work was there, so we started thinking about that. And in July of this year, we took the leap. We moved to Fort Collins for an epic family adventure, and just enjoying the plateau, if you will. Like, enjoying the freedom that we had already gained but kind of forgot in the pace of moving forward, chasing our dreams. We’re like, “Well, actually, we kind of made it. Can we take a moment?” So, in the end, Millie ended up being our rainbow baby, just in a different way. She just helps us, reminds us to see the rainbow, and to pause. Yeah, so that’s where we’re at now. We’re back in Fort Collins, kind of the circle is completed, and the kids are with us all day every day. And it’s awesome and it’s intense and it’s hard, because at the same time, we’re living, flipping this house, right? So it’s 23,000-square-foot single-family home that we’re now renovating.

Brandon:
Wait, how big? 23,000 or 2300? [crosstalk 00:35:34]

Maria:
No, did I say that?

Brandon:
Yeah. 2300? Okay.

Maria:
Yeah.

Brandon:
I was like, “23,000, that’s a…”

David:
It sounds like royalty in Finland.

Maria:
Yeah.

Brandon:
Oh, she didn’t mention she was the Finnish Queen. [crosstalk 00:35:49]

David:
Yes, exactly.

Brandon:
Is there a queen in Finland? I don’t know, is that a thing?

Maria:
No, we have a President, but a female. [crosstalk 00:35:52] No, I’m sorry. Not a female President, I’m going to take that back. Yeah, the Prime Minister is female.

Brandon:
A non-female.

Maria:
A non-female President but a non-male Prime Minister, yeah.

Brandon:
Okay, man.

Maria:
Oof, that was a lot.

Brandon:
Heavy, heavy, yeah.

Maria:
But also a lot of light.

Brandon:
Yeah.

Maria:
Yeah. [crosstalk 00:36:12] So there’s a lot of love in that story for me.

Brandon:
Well, I remember you posting about it after it happened on social, and man, I just feel for you. My wife and I were just like… I mean, we did cry for you, and…

Maria:
Thank you.

Brandon:
It’s a terrible thing.

Maria:
And you know, because of Rosie and what happened. The end result was different for you, but you know the feeling, like when you’re at the doctor’s and you’re like…

Brandon:
Yeah, something I wouldn’t want to wish on worst enemy. But yeah.

Maria:
Yeah, thank you. [crosstalk 00:36:43]

Brandon:
Come here, come here. Hug me. I need a hug. We can’t just not hug that one out.

Maria:
Can I just share?

Brandon:
Yeah, sure.

Maria:
I don’t know, I told Heather this. So, when I was in Maui just recently, your son came up to me, and he kind of just went straight for me and just hugged me, and I kind of think that he maybe thought that I was Heather, because he just saw legs, but also, there’s a part of me like, “Babies have a connection. Like, he was up there not too long ago.”

Brandon:
Yeah, yeah.

Maria:
So, yeah. So, thank you to him for that.

Brandon:
That’s cool.

Maria:
Yeah.

Brandon:
That’s cool. All right, well, let’s…

Maria:
Oof.

Brandon:
Oof. Okay, let’s talk. I want to get to some advice from you, for the audience, for those people listening. We’ll start with some real estate stuff. People who are in your shoes and they’re saying, “I don’t have a lot of money right now. The market’s crazy. I got to start doing this thing,” what’s the first thing they should do? I mean, what would you advise for somebody who’s just getting started right now?

Maria:
I had the pleasure of working with J.J. Abrams in Silicon Valley, and…

Brandon:
He’s legit. [crosstalk 00:37:56]

Maria:
Legit.

Brandon:
Yeah, that guy is the guy.

Maria:
Yeah. So he’s legit because he’s very good at what he does, but this story’s about why I think he’s successful. And it happened, he was about to go onstage, and my team was backstage to help all the presenters, and it’s a few minutes before, and his presentation keeps crashing, because obviously he has a lot of video in there, right?

Brandon:
Yeah.

Maria:
So, our art director, Kevin, steps up, and it’s obviously high, high… What’s that called? Like the stress.

Brandon:
Stress, yeah. Right.

Maria:
He saves the moment. So, he fixes the presentation and instead of J.J. just jumping up, he was a couple minutes late for his presentation, his keynote. There were like 5000 people in the audience. He pauses, and he goes around the entire room, he hugs Kevin, and then he goes through everybody in the room, we were maybe like 10 in there, and shakes everybody’s hand, looks us in the eyes, and he goes, “Thank you.”

Brandon:
That’s great.

Maria:
And I think that just taught me, “Be an effing pleasure to work with,” right? So you need to know yourself, that’s basic. Like, you need to approach people with some kind of value, in terms of, like you always say, you need to have time, you need to have hustle, you need to have some sort of knowledge, or you need to have money, but if you don’t have money, then always make sure that you’re really cool to be around. Yes, I think that’s my number one.

Brandon:
All right, that’s good. All right, so some more questions. We talked a bit about heartbreak on this episode, and I want to talk about another heartbreak, and that was David’s heartbreak. Who wants to tell that story?

Maria:
Well, I can tell it, but it was the other way around. [crosstalk 00:39:50]

Brandon:
Oh, was it? Okay. Oh, okay.

Maria:
Yeah.

Brandon:
Okay. I thought…

Maria:
I’m the heartbroken one.

Brandon:
See, I thought I heard David was heartbroken. Okay. Let’s hear the story.

Maria:
Well, maybe. Maybe. If he was, I don’t know.

Brandon:
Okay, let’s hear this.

Maria:
Oh, man. Another story of Nashville.

Brandon:
Okay.

Maria:
A lot of things happen in Nashville, man.

David:
What happens in Nashville gets told on a podcast.

Maria:
Yeah.

David:
Unlike what happens here in Vegas. All right.

Maria:
All right, so I’m in Nashville, I meet David for the first time, I shake his hand, tell my name, and afterwards, I reach back out to him. And he does not remember ever meeting me, so…

Brandon:
David.

Maria:
Yeah. So that’s like, “Ugh,” a little bit. Okay, but it continues.

Brandon:
Okay.

Maria:
So, David, you gave a keynote that day. I think you had flown all night, remember that? Something happened with your flight?

David:
Yeah, my flight was delayed and I had to stay at a hotel and got like an hour of sleep, and then showed up right before I had to speak.

Maria:
Yup. So me, the kind person as I am, reached out to you, and I’m like, “So, okay. It was great meeting you, David. I used to work at the world’s leading presentation agency in Silicon Valley. Would you want some pointers and some feedback on your keynote presentation?” And you, as a person that loves to grow, you’re like, “Yeah, I’d love to.” So I’m like, “David responded, oh my god. So he doesn’t remember, that’s fine, but he responded.” So I type up this essay to you of all the things, like, “This was great, here’s something that you can work on,” and blah de blah. Crickets. And my husband’s like, “Dude, what did you do? You just ruined your career? Like, you’re blacklisted from everything from now on.” And I’m like, “Oh god.”

Maria:
And here’s a part that you don’t know, David, and nobody knows, really. So, I don’t hear in a few days about this. I’m at my friend’s [inaudible 00:41:53] in Stockholm, Sweden, and the day you actually write me back is the day I had found out that the pregnancy, the baby that I was expecting then, in week 10, the heart wasn’t beating. So I’m crushed, and you respond this day. And you say, “Maria,” do you remember what you wrote me? It’s okay if you say no.

David:
Yeah, I don’t remember the details of it. [crosstalk 00:42:19]

Maria:
Here’s what you said. Yeah, so you wrote, “Maria, this is probably the best thing I have ever read in my life.” So, just that kindness, I’m going to cry again. No, it was a hard day for me, obviously, so just a piece of kindness can do so much, so thank you for that.

David:
Yeah, well, that’s really good. I think that’s probably a situation Brandon and I find ourselves in more times than we would like to with all the things that we have going on, and that’s why I’m saying I feel like a bull in a china shop a lot of the time, because I did remember meeting you, Maria. In fact, I remember in Nashville, you were with Investor Girl Brit and a few other ladies on your way out and-

Brandon:
Non-males.

David:
Yeah, a few other non-males. And you guys were heading out to dinner and I was going somewhere else and it was like the high pitched-

Brandon:
We’re getting canceled over this show.

David:
…”David!” And I turned around, and Brittany was there, and a bunch of the rest of you were there, and I do remember seeing you, but I couldn’t remember your name, which is also a common thing, where you see someone’s face, and you’re like, “Oh yeah, they’re all over bigger pockets, but I don’t remember where I know them from.” So, I did remember you, I just didn’t want to get sucked into a conversation where it was going to be obvious and I’m like, “Hey, you.” Right? One of those things. And then, when you gave me the feedback on the speech, it was very long. [crosstalk 00:43:39]

Maria:
It was long?

David:
It was probably like three bubbles long of information, so it’s hard for me to be able to read through all that, still think of a thoughtful response, and so I probably just read it, wasn’t able to get back to it right away.

Brandon:
Do you remember what you told David? What’d he suck at?

Maria:
Do you want me to go through some? I do remember.

Brandon:
Okay, what did David need to improve on? Because okay, public speaking is a thing that you have to do when you’re a real estate investor. You don’t have to, but a lot of us do, whether it’s at a conference or just pitching with your friend, or whatever. So help us improve.

Maria:
Well, I can give you one thing that I told David, and it was-

Brandon:
Notice I didn’t ask you to say anything about me because I’m a high I.

Maria:
Yeah. So I told you that… [crosstalk 00:44:15]

David:
Let’s dissect David on the show [inaudible 00:44:16].

Brandon:
Let’s look at David instead, he can handle it, he’s a D. He’s good.

Maria:
I told David that I can tell that he’s so passionate about this, but that level of passion can come across as aggression when he’s onstage, that he’s so intense on there. So I told him to slow down a little bit and soften it up. And this is important for everybody, and especially maybe Americans, to bring-

Brandon:
No.

Maria:
Bring contrast. So, sometimes be a little quiet and slow down, and then you can come back and be like, “Rah! Da, da, da.” And that contrast is key in keeping the audience attention. First you need to grab it, and then you need to hold it, and the holding is a difficult part, and that’s where the contrast comes in. And the other part was I think I told you to stand still a little more and pick one person and look in their eyes for three seconds, because that gives a sense of empathy to the audience. So if you look at one person, it makes everybody feel like you’re talking to them. It’s weird.

Brandon:
Yeah.

Maria:
But it’s true, so… And three seconds feels like a long ass time for the speaker, but it’s not for the audience.

Brandon:
Trying to do it right now. Okay, that’s good. And I was going to say, notice how she didn’t correct my speech, but then I realized that’s how we started this interview, with you telling me how horrible I sounded, so we don’t need to go there. We’re not going to rehash that anymore. I want to go back into real estate a little bit, some topics here. Specifically, I want to talk, let’s talk about finding money today. Like, raising money or finding money, getting mortgage, getting loans. What have you found works with that? What have you had success with?

Maria:
You want to get into my sweet, sweet four steps of getting a loan the Maria way?

David:
Do you have a little trademark on that? I hope you do. You have a jingle and a trademark on it.

Maria:
I can work on the jingle if you work on the… What’s that called? The abbreviation?

Brandon:
Yeah, I can do the acronyms.

Maria:
Yeah, acronym.

Brandon:
Yeah, I’m pretty good at acronyms. Dave will give you an analogy.

Maria:
Yeah.

Brandon:
It’ll be perfect. [crosstalk 00:46:18]

Maria:
Perfect.

Brandon:
All right, so you got the jingle, I got the acronym. Okay, what is the four?

Maria:
All right, so this is how I secured a 550,000 bank loan for a newly started LLC with no income and as a stay-at-home mom.

Brandon:
Okay.

Maria:
Boom.

Brandon:
All right.

Maria:
And something that everybody can do. Number one, I’m going into the bank, bring your baby who’s 10 month old and then forget that you bring that baby. So I’m pitching, I’m so into the pitching, my baby Stella’s under the table, and when I’m done pitching, I look under, and she has ran havoc in my purse, like all of my stuff. There’s food everywhere, even… What do you call it? A feminine pad?

Brandon:
Yeah. [crosstalk 00:47:05]

Maria:
Yeah, so she’s ripped out a feminine pad, it’s stuck to the banker’s shoe, and he’s like, “Is this yours?” So, start with that.

Brandon:
Step one, I can do that.

Maria:
Number two, here’s where we get into the real stuff.

Brandon:
All right. Number one was bring your 10-month-old baby and forget them.

Maria:
Yeah.

Brandon:
Okay. What’s the second one?

Maria:
Number two, and you touched on this, it’s you have got to get to know your audience. Like, what’s his name? Magnum PI.

David:
That’s an old reference.

Maria:
Put those pants on.

Brandon:
I don’t know. I’m not that old.

Maria:
Right, okay. So, what are they like, the person you’re talking to? So for me, what’s a banker like? I asked around, people who had worked with him before. I stalked his Facebook, I saw that he had kids, I saw pictures of them. Like, I knew that he would be okay with me bringing a baby in there, he’d have empathy there. So, what keeps them up at night? Well, when it comes to a bank, it’s always risk. How can I mitigate that? So I came in with a 20 page business plan, and a huge part of that was a risk mitigation plan, “All right, what’s my exit strategy? How do I get around a market crash while I buy under market price?” And so I had a few key things. And how can you solve their problems? Is a big one, and how can you make them shine? And I love the way you talk about this, David, in your “BRRRR” book. You go into specific details when it comes to a bank. Is it a small bank? Do they need more liquidity to be able to give out more loans? Do you have a friend with money that can start saving there? Can you start saving there?

Maria:
So I opened up an account with them even though I didn’t need it, I started putting money in there every month, and also, I’m like, “What’s a KPI that he gets measured on? Probably selling a lot of other crap.” So I bought everything. So he’s like, “Here’s this thing.” I’m like, “I’ll get it. Yes, give me.” So I spend $100 or $1000 on just buying all the extra stuff, just to make him look good, and also introduce him to a bunch of other investors.

David:
Oh, that’s a good idea. Yeah.

Maria:
So that he got more business. And what do you want them to do, right? So I went in, I’m like, “I want the money, but I don’t want just that. I want a partner, right? I want a bank that can grow with me.” So think about that when you go in then, and also think about how will they resist? And how can you best reach them? So this is the same thing, right? What’s their choice of medium? Do I bring an Excel? Yes, to a bank, always bring an Excel. Bring a lot of hockey sticks, right? And then with the hockey stick, I mean, exactly, the graph that goes up and, “Here’s the plan for how I’m going to make the business grow and how you’re going to be making a lot of money off of me.”

Brandon:
Yeah, I like that idea of thinking about that their biggest concern is risk, right? And that’s going to be always… Like, a bank’s job, they make money by lending out money. Because this is such a thing I didn’t understand earlier in my career, is banks are not guarding money like it’s the “Harry Potter” vault. They’re not-

Maria:
Eh, kind of.

Brandon:
Yeah, well, some of them act that way, but the only way a bank survives is by lending out money. That is what they do. And the more they do it, the more money they make, and the more they make in bonuses in their job. Like, they make money by lending money. So, they want to do, they’re on your side, if you can convince them. And that’s like you said, it’s the how you present it, what media you do, what your risk mitigation plan is, all that. All right, so that’s good. You’ll know your audience. [crosstalk 00:50:38]

Maria:
Yeah, can I give one last example on that that’s very specific? So, in Finland, we use a lot of ARM loans, so Adjustable Rate Mortgages as opposed to… We don’t have a 30 year fixed as an option. So, I showed up with a plan for what will happen if the rates go up to 1%, 3%, 6%, and a plan for each. So I think that’s one thing if you do use ARMs, or any other type of risk scenario that you’re in in your market, come with a plan for each of them.

Brandon:
Very cool. All right. What do you got next?

David:
That sort of ties back to the DISC model, we should highlight that.

Maria:
Yeah.

Brandon:
Yeah, it does. Yeah.

David:
You want to present information to other people in the way that they value. So, an Excel spreadsheet that shows risk mitigation is very powerful to a high C, who’s looking at that, and that’s probably our decision maker. Bringing their favorite kind of Bundt cake isn’t going to be as big of a deal to a high C as to the high I, who may be the sales rep that gets you the meeting with the high C. So tailoring your approach to the values of the person you’re talking to will always get you further than just doing for someone else what you would want done for yourself, assuming everyone’s like you.

Brandon:
Yeah.

Maria:
Yeah. And also, maybe to challenge that a little bit, David, or add to it, is even though a person is driven by data, all decisions are made through an emotional connection, because that’s the part of the brain that drives us. So even though you don’t think that, and that brings us to number three. Define how you’re going to transform the audience, and that includes how they feel about you, right? So everybody, when you come into a room, and you’re about to pitch or have a meeting or whatever, they think something and they feel something about who you are. And figure that out, think about that. What do they think about you when you walk in and what do you want them to think when you head out?

Maria:
All right, so to give you an example of what I did, I was pretty sure they were going to look at me and go like, “All right, oh gosh, this is a brand new LLC.” And instead, I wanted them to think, “She’s an experienced investor,” because at this point, I had already point a to the million dollar portfolio, right? So then I thought, “How can I make them see that?” Well, I brought in a massive Excel, where I showed all my deals with 20 metrics for each. And he’s like, “Whoa. Not even engineers come in with this.” So, I moved him over. Number two, they’re going to see a risk of default. We had $2500 at the LLC’s account, and I wanted them to see, “All right, these owners and this entrepreneur, she’s financially savvy.” And the way I could show that I came up with, I brought an Excel again for the net worth of my family as well as my brother’s family, because it was three of us, me, my husband, and my brother. And I showed over a period of like three to five years how our net worth had progressed. And yeah. [crosstalk 00:53:50] I’m pretty proud of that. Like, I heard myself pause a little bit.

Maria:
And the last one, and these are just examples. I had like 10 of these. They’re going to think about the market risk, okay? So, I want them to instead see, “Hey, this investment is worth taking the risk for us.” And the way I did that is, like I mentioned, I had the risk mitigation plan in the business plan to kind of… All the questions they would’ve asked, I’m like, “Well, that’s page five.” And it doesn’t really matter what you say there, it’s just the fact that you’ve thought of that, right?

Brandon:
Yeah, that’s what I was going to say, is at some level now, when that banker or that person or that lender, that private lender, that hard money lender, that partner, whatever, when they see that you’ve done that level of work, whether it’s consciously or subconsciously, they instantly think, “If that’s what they do to prepare to do this, what are they going to actually do in the actual work?”

Maria:
Yeah.

Brandon:
So, it’s that same thing we say over and over and over, how you do anything is how you do everything. And you’ve just proven that. Like you said, it doesn’t even matter that much what you say, it’s more important that you say it and a lot of it in a way that they understand and respect. [crosstalk 00:55:03]

Maria:
Yup, exactly. All right, moving on. You ready?

Brandon:
So that was number three, right?

Maria:
That was three.

Brandon:
Okay.

Maria:
Here comes number four. Find common ground, right? So choose a banker that is an investor themselves, or choose a banker that understands real estate investing. So, I knew that, so I started by asking about his, and we had shared experiences and we bonded over that. And also, after that, you can see if you have common goals, right? “We want to grow together, I want to help your bank,” and then you can get into the qualifications of why you’re uniquely qualified to do that with them. Last one…

Brandon:
Last one? [crosstalk 00:55:44] I thought it was only four steps.

Maria:
No, it’s five.

Brandon:
Okay. [crosstalk 00:55:47]

Maria:
Well, because this is the bonus, or maybe I wrote the wrong number when I pitched it to you.

David:
Well, maybe the first one doesn’t count. All right, what’s the last one?

Maria:
Maybe the first one was a bonus, all right. Stick out like a dog’s balls. [crosstalk 00:55:59]

Brandon:
[inaudible 00:55:59] say that?

Maria:
Yes. So at the agency that I worked at, for every presentation, you should have a STAR moment. And that stands for, you’ll love this, “Something To Always Remember.”

Brandon:
Oh.

Maria:
Right?

Brandon:
“Something They’ll Always Remember.” STAR, I like it. Look at that.

Maria:
Yeah. So, don’t be afraid of being you. Like, you do you, boo. Right? I came in as the whirlwind I am, and I was me and I forgot about the baby, but he saw the passion that I came with. I came in with a point of view, with a vision that I had for the company and the motto, and that was something that he wanted to get behind, so I think that’s an important part. We don’t have to be all so buttoned up. That’s not what makes you professional.

David:
Agreed. Yeah, there is something magical about standing out.

Maria:
Mr. Flip-flops.

David:
Yeah, exactly. I mean, I grew the beard as a way to stand out, and I don’t mean that in a bad way, maybe it’s a bad way, but there’s so much vanilla in the world, right?

Maria:
Yeah.

David:
There’s something that people need to grab onto. It’s why things like house hacking and “BRRRR” took off. It’s why our podcast took off. It’s why people invest with open door capital, like with my company, is there’s things we do to stand out on individual bases and on wide, and it’s not just me, it’s all the best investors that I know, have that like, “We’re not like everyone else. We’re not just vanilla.” It doesn’t mean you’re immature, it just means you’re showcasing who you really are.

Maria:
Yeah.

David:
Because people can see when you’re hiding who you are and they can’t see who you really are and they know they can’t see who you really are, they’re going to fear who you really are. They’re like, “Oh, they must be a weirdo.”

Maria:
You’ve taught me a lot about that, about the branding aspect of… If you just… You talk about yourself, and now we’re kind of getting into social media a little bit as well, but if you talk about yourself just as an investor, “Well, there’s thousands of us out there,” but if you talk about yourself… So, for me, maybe it’s like, “All right, I’m an investor, but I’m also a [inaudible 00:58:05] experience.” Like, maybe have two things come together, and I’m butchering. You tell it so much better.

Brandon:
That’s good, that’s good. It’s the intersection of two interests. [crosstalk 00:58:13]

Maria:
The intersection.

Brandon:
There you go. Yeah, if you’re there, then people like that. So, yeah. I like it.

Maria:
Yeah.

Brandon:
Cool. All right.

Maria:
Cool.

Brandon:
Was that the last one? Dog’s balls?

Maria:
Stick out like a dog’s ball, dude.

Brandon:
Okay, that’s going to be your next book. That’s going to be your book. It’s going to be called “The Dog Ball Theory,” and it’s about how to stand out in a world of vanilla. Yes.

Maria:
So it’s “Shoe Dog” and me.

Brandon:
Yes, exactly.

Maria:
Yeah, I like that.

Brandon:
You’ll blow “Shoe Dog” out of the water, it’ll be great. All right, we got to start moving towards the end. David, I don’t want to rob any more questions you might have lined up. If not, I will ask the broad question of is there anything that I didn’t ask you today, Maria, that you wish I would’ve, or anything that you thought, “I can help people with this thing”?

Maria:
Hm. Maybe one thing. So, everything that you do comes with… I want to say shiz, but I’m going to use poo instead, so everything comes with a poo sandwich. Right? So, you’ve talked about this. It’s like if you want to be a rock star, the poo sandwich is you have to play guitar five hours a day.

Brandon:
Yeah. I don’t think I’ve ever said the words “poo sandwich” in my life, but- [crosstalk 00:59:29]

Maria:
And I didn’t come up with that, it’s Elizabeth Gilbert, wrote that in a book, “Big Magic,” it’s amazing. Anyways…

Brandon:
She’s the “Eat Pray Love” lady, right? Is that right?

Maria:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. She’s really, really good.

Brandon:
Not read anything yet, but…

Maria:
Ah, do.

Brandon:
Okay, all right. Do it right now.

Maria:
So, even just- [crosstalk 00:59:46]

Brandon:
Not right now, keep going.

Maria:
So, if you’re nervous, or if you’re nervous about going onstage or public speaking, which is very common, or me coming on this pod, right? Haven’t been able to eat for a week. But I’m like, “Am I willing to eat that poo sandwich?” Because I love performing, I love teaching people, I love being on pods and entertaining and making people laugh, right? So I’m like, “Yeah, I’m going to eat that sandwich. Give me yours. All right, I’ll eat all of the sandwiches as long as I get to do this.” So I think, “Are you willing to eat the poo sandwich that comes with what you want to do, really?”

Brandon:
That’s really good. It reminds me a bit of what? I think Mark Manson, right?

Maria:
Yeah.

Brandon:
In “The Subtle Art of Not Giving a…” fudge, we’ll say.

Maria:
Yeah, giving a poo.

Brandon:
Yeah, giving a poo. Yeah. He says rather than setting a goal for what you want, ask yourself, “What am I willing to suffer for or die for?” Whatever- [crosstalk 01:00:50]

Maria:
“Who you are is defined by what you’re willing to suffer for.”

Brandon:
Yeah, yeah. It’s what that line says. So good.

Maria:
Yeah.

Brandon:
And that’s what, at BPCON this year, the speech I gave was on a lot about alignment, and I talked about passion, the word “passion.” The root word of “passion” actually means “to suffer.” That’s why we say “The Passion of the Christ,” that’s why the movie and the term “passion of the Christ,” it’s the suffering. So, I’m passionate about real estate. Well, are you willing to suffer for that? I’m passionate to run a marathon. Well, are you or are you infatuated with it or are you just lusting after that thing or are you truly passionate? That’s the true sign of passion, is suffering. [crosstalk 01:01:26]

Maria:
There’s one more awesome resource for that, the “Atomic Habits.”

Brandon:
Yeah, yeah. [inaudible 01:01:34]

Maria:
That’s one my favorite episodes that you did.

Brandon:
When he wrote that book I was so mad at him, because everything there, I was like, “I wanted to write this book.” He just did a way better job than I could ever do, so it’s amazing.

Maria:
So, for you guys who haven’t read it, can I share something?

Brandon:
Sure.

Maria:
So, for all of you who don’t even know what that thing for you is, like if you don’t even know what you love or what your passion is, here are a few questions that he asks in that book that really jived with me. So, “When are you enjoying yourself when others are complaining? The work that hurts you less than others is the work that you’re meant to do. What makes you lose track of time? Where do you get greater returns than the average person, and what comes naturally to you, really? Like, when have you felt alive, like the real you?” Oh, makes me want to cry.

Brandon:
You’re going to like tomorrow. I’m going to ask [inaudible 01:02:30] questions now.

Maria:
Oh, god.

Brandon:
Yeah, tomorrow, a goal-setting day. We’re going to hit those questions and more. You’re going to love it.

Maria:
Okay, perfect.

Brandon:
Yeah, it’s going to be great. Because I love… What’s the quote from Tim Ferriss? He always says, “The quality of your life is determined by the quality of questions.”

Maria:
Yeah, “Ask better questions.”

Brandon:
Yeah, “Ask better questions, get better answers.” And yeah, I really love good questions. I think in the goal-setting, whenever I do any kind of goal-setting, I’ll ask myself like 100 questions first. Yeah, those type of questions, because when you start thinking differently, that’s when your life starts to change.

Maria:
Yeah.

Brandon:
Good stuff.

Maria:
Oof.

Brandon:
Good stuff. [crosstalk 01:03:08] Moving on. It’s time for the… [crosstalk 01:03:10] (singing). Time to get to the famous four.

Maria:
All right.

Brandon:
The same four questions we ask every guest every week, and we’re going to ask you now. Do you have a current or all-time favorite real estate-related book? Besides, all of mine, obviously. Obviously.

Maria:
Obvi.

Brandon:
Obviously, okay. Favorite real estate book?

Maria:
Yeah. One that impacted the move that we did this year, of kind of taking a… What do you call it? Like a [sabbat 01:03:36], here?

Brandon:
Yeah, sabbatical.

Maria:
Sabbatical here.

Brandon:
Like I’m doing right in a few weeks, yes.

Maria:
Yeah. “Retire Early Through Real Estate,” Chad Carson.

Brandon:
Chad Carson.

Maria:
Yeah.

Brandon:
That guy is legit.

Maria:
Yeah, Chad made a huge impression on me in Nashville, as well, so really thankful for… In that book, he talks about enjoying the plateaus, and it’s hard to me to slow down, as you know. High D, high I and high D, to slow down and enjoy and not just keep moving. And so…

Brandon:
True story. So after BPCON this year, I went to Disney World with Rosie and Wilder and Heather, and it was late one night and the kids were cranky. We were at EPCOT Center. And we were just like, “We need to go find a place to sit down and relax for a little bit.” And so we find this grassy area, has a bunch of picnic tables on it. And there’s one picnic table that’s empty, so I go sit down there, and we’re eating some food that we had, and this other family comes up and sits down at the table too, because it’s the only one left. And we’re sitting there eating, and I look up. It’s Chad Carson.

Maria:
No way.

Brandon:
Yeah, at the same… And he didn’t realize I was sitting there, I didn’t realize. And we’re just both sitting there at this table, we look up, we just catch eyes with each other. I’m like, “Chad!” And he’s like, “Brandon!” So anyway, Chad Carson, Disney World, 2021. It was great.

Maria:
That’s awesome.

Brandon:
We ended up talking for like an hour and a half and the kids played together. He is the real deal. His whole book, “Retire Early with Real Estate,” he is the guy that’s not… Like, I’m super ambitious and I want to have billions of dollars, but he’s just like, “Yeah, I just want a good life.” And that book is all about that.

Maria:
It was a good reminder. Like, have you guys seen “Soul,” the movie?

Brandon:
Yeah.

Maria:
Yeah. So I’ve been the little fish for a long time, who’s like, “Hey, I’m looking for the ocean.” And the older dude is like, “Well, you’re in it.” And I’m like, “No, no, no, no. This is just water. I’m looking for the ocean.”

Brandon:
Yup.

Maria:
Right? I’m like, “Stop looking and see,” right? So, he helped me with that.

Brandon:
That’s cool.

Maria:
So, Coach Carson, right? On Instagram?

Brandon:
Coachcarson.com is Chad’s website.

Maria:
Yeah.

Brandon:
Cool. All right, David.

David:
Next question, what is your favorite business book?

Maria:
One of my favorites is called “Resonate” by Nancy Duarte, have you read it?

Brandon:
Never. [crosstalk 01:05:45] I love new book reviews.

Maria:
Yeah, yeah. So she’s the CEO and the founder of the agency that I worked for [inaudible 01:05:55]. And this book just shifted my take on how to talk to people, how to present, and everything that we’ve talked today about, really, about how to make that connection with your audience and how to keep it.

Brandon:
So, “Resonate”?

Maria:
Yeah, “Resonate.”

Brandon:
Good.

Maria:
It’s a really good one. Also, I’m just really thankful for them taking a huge risk with me, hiring some rando Finnish girl with a physical therapy Bachelor Degree, working at a marketing agency or a comms agency.

Brandon:
That’s cool.

Maria:
Yeah, shout out.

Brandon:
All right. Any other books you want to recommend? Is that good?

Maria:
Oh, dude. I have a list of 50.

Brandon:
If you have more, you can add more.

Maria:
Yeah.

Brandon:
I know we say favorite book, but you could list more. [crosstalk 01:06:39]

Maria:
Just anything about…

Brandon:
Oh, you do have a list. Holy cow, wow.

Maria:
I do, I do. I told you I come prepared to these things. Everything by Brene Brown, just about being vulnerable and about daring and how to do things despite it being scary. So, none of this fearless crap. Like, I’m scared all the time. I just do things anyways. Like, that’s what I want to teach my kids. That’s what being brave is about. Like, you can feel two feelings at the same time.

David:
Yeah. I heard a quote when I was really young that always stuck with me, that “You literally cannot have courage without fear.”

Maria:
Yeah.

David:
And then, I remember there was a Marcus Aurelius quote. I’m going to butcher it, but it was something along the lines of, “The most important virtue to have is courage, because without it, you can’t have any of the other virtues.” So that always stuck with me, that when you’re feeling fear, that is not a sign you’re doing something wrong. You’re not supposed to wait for fear to go away before you do something. It’s like you said, have another feeling at the same time, have courage spring up and be stronger than the fear and take action in spite of it.

Maria:
I also love, and we could do a whole nother episode on just fear, but I love the sense of the idea of taking fear and being like, “All right, we’re going on a road trip. You can join, thanks for being here. I know you’re trying to hold an eye out for me. You can sit in the back. You can’t sit in the front. You can definitely not tell me where we’re going, and you cannot touch the music.” So, that’s what I try to tell myself. I’m like, “All right, hey, buddy. Come on. Join the ride.” Same thing with… What’s that called? Self criticism. I know that it’s going to be there. I always have it. After this, I’m going to go sit in a corner for five minutes and I’m going to let it come. I’m like, “Hey, great that you’re here. Let’s bash this out,” do it for five minutes, and then I’m going to come out of my corner and be like, “That’s it. I’m not allowed to think about this anymore.”

Brandon:
I love it. I love it.

David:
Got to have that. Otherwise you can’t be friends with Brandon, because you never know the next time he’s going to call you fat or criticize your clothes. Fears will always be present.

Brandon:
I just said don’t wear pajamas, because you asked me something. Anyway…

David:
[crosstalk 01:08:47] No, there was more. And that’s why I didn’t get invited to Vegas, because you’re like, “David, I would love for you to be here, but these people, they look like me and Maria, and I don’t know that this is your…”

Brandon:
That is the opposite of what happened. I think I invited you 400 times, and he’s like, “Oh, I got responsibilities in life. I have to make money and stuff.” Lame, David. You could be sitting here right now in the room with Maria and me.

David:
In that 7000-square-foot place. That private-

Brandon:
7500-square-foot private penthouse suite.

David:
We could be running around playing Marco Polo right now.

Brandon:
We could totally be playing Marco Polo in here.

Maria:
But true story, they didn’t even let me in when I rang the doorbell, because this place is so big, they couldn’t hear me. [crosstalk 01:09:22]

Brandon:
Really? Oh, yeah. That’s true. They didn’t hear the doorbell, because it was- [crosstalk 01:09:24]

David:
Because it was too far away? Oh, that’s funny.

Brandon:
Yeah, there was a couple others here that I was giving a tour to the 7500-square-foot suite.

David:
It comes with a golf cart that you can use to drive around your entire suite.

Brandon:
Yeah. Actually, I was giving a tour to Noah and Jeff, who were guests on the podcast back a month or two ago, so they’re here as well, and a bunch of others. There’s actually a lot of podcast guests here, it’s great. All right, well, we got to start moving on. David, next question.

David:
Next question, what are some of your hobbies?

Maria:
Hobbies. I used to do competitive-level running, so…

Brandon:
Want to run right now, around the suite?

Maria:
Dude, I’m going to take you down so fast.

Brandon:
I will totally win. I will totally win. I have long legs.

Maria:
Well, it’s long enough. 400 meters was my jam. So, what I do now is I can’t really call that running, because it’s more like too slow to be called running, but I do love to be out in nature and forest bathing.

Brandon:
What does that mean?

Maria:
So, it’s when you immerse yourself in stillness in the forest. It’s a Japanese thing. And Ryan Holiday talks about that, I think, in “Stillness Is the Key.” Awesome book.

Brandon:
Great book.

Maria:
So, I started doing that when I was pregnant with Millie, and that was the place where I connected with her the most, so I keep doing that. So, nature. And then…

Brandon:
There’s something amazing about getting in nature, yeah.

Maria:
Yeah. Dude, I mean, there are literal things that happen to your brain when you’re immersed in the forest for five minutes. Like, I’m not making this up.

Brandon:
No, I believe it. I thought you were going to say bathing in the forest. Like, it’s too cold to actually bathe.

Maria:
No, yeah.

Brandon:
Pretty cool in the forest.

Maria:
Yeah.

Brandon:
But it is winter right now, so… Anyway, keep going.

Maria:
Yep. And then I have this passion for thrifting, and I guess it’s… I love seeing potential in things, so glamming up old furniture and designing furniture, I love doing that.

Brandon:
I went through a phase in ’17, ’18, ’19 where all my clothes came from thrift shops.

Maria:
Yeah.

Brandon:
And it was just like I would not wear clothes that were not thrift shop clothes. And they’re some of the best clothes I ever owned, were thrift shop clothes. I’ve had one that said “Math rules,” and there’s numbers all over it, and it was my favorite shirt for a long time, “Math rules.”

Maria:
Cool.

Brandon:
Yeah, I had another one that said… It was not AV club… Some other club I was part of. There were some good… I’ll go back into that. [crosstalk 01:11:37]

Maria:
You’re such a nerd. That’s awesome.

Brandon:
Yeah, I know. I was such a nerd. I was president of the AV club. It was great. Moving on.

Maria:
Can I add one thing?

Brandon:
You may.

Maria:
I recently started writing again.

Brandon:
Writing?

Maria:
Yeah.

Brandon:
Okay.

Maria:
That I haven’t done in a couple years. It’s just been too painful, I think.

Brandon:
Want to write a book?

Maria:
Yeah, we already decided on it, dude.

Brandon:
Oh, that’s true, “Dog Balls.”

Maria:
Duh.

Brandon:
Yeah, okay.

Maria:
Yeah. But it’s been really helpful in finding my focus and healing process and grief, so highly recommend it.

Brandon:
I highly recommend it, too.

Maria:
Like Hal Elrod, what’s his acronym again? SMART? SAVERS?

Brandon:
SAVERS.

Maria:
SAVERS, yeah. Scribing.

Brandon:
Scribing.

Maria:
That’s my choice of poison.

Brandon:
All right. I’m right there with you. I love it. All right, next question is mine, I guess. What separates successful real estate investors from all those who give up, fail, or never get started?

Maria:
The big one.

Brandon:
The big one.

Maria:
Have you heard of Finnish [Sisu 01:12:38]?

Brandon:
Sisu?

Maria:
Sisu, sisu.

Brandon:
Isn’t that the name of the dragon on that one Disney movie?

Maria:
Yeah.

Brandon:
Dragon movie?

Maria:
Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t think it’s spelled the same way.

Brandon:
I don’t think it’s- [crosstalk 01:12:46]

Maria:
It’s S-I-S-U. And it’s this… You can’t really translate it to English because it has so much in it, but it’s…

Brandon:
Like [fika 01:12:57]?

Maria:
Like fika. Yeah, yeah.

Brandon:
Okay. [inaudible 01:13:00]

Maria:
Yup. So, sisu is this inner courage and grit, and it’s not just momentary courage, but sustained courage over time. And Finland was in war against Russia in the Second World War, and just a couple days ago was Finland’s Independence Day, and next week, I’m actually going home to my Grandma’s funeral, and she was one of the last veterans that were alive from that war. She was just a teenager when she volunteered in that. So, to answer your question, I think it takes different things at different times, right? So I think you need to be curious, I think you need to be open to letting go of control, I think you need to be creative. But none of that matters if you don’t have sisu or some level of grit and sticking with it.

Brandon:
That’s so good. So good. So good. I can’t say that much longer, David. He always makes fun of me for being so good. All right, before we move on, fika. Can you explain that one?

Maria:
Fika.

Brandon:
Is that [inaudible 01:14:13]?

Maria:
Yeah.

Brandon:
We bonded over fika in Nashville, this idea.

Maria:
Yeah. It was awesome. I think I redeemed myself with that.

Brandon:
You may have.

Maria:
Yeah, because Brandon’s like, “Have you guys heard about this thing called fika?” And I’m like, “Dude…”

Brandon:
Yeah, because I bought a book called “Fika,” and it’s all about…

Maria:
Yeah. And I’m like, “I grew up in Stockholm, Sweden. I know all about Fika.” So Fika is this coffee break that you take, but it’s so much more than just sitting down and having coffee. It’s bonding over the coffee, and it’s a cultural thing, right? So that’s the way you meet friends. “Hey, let’s go have a fika,” and all the workplaces do it once or twice a day, so it’s just having pause. [crosstalk 01:14:55]

Brandon:
It’s like the greatest concept. Yeah.

Maria:
I think.

Brandon:
Pause in your week, yeah. [crosstalk 01:14:57]

Maria:
Yeah.

Brandon:
I’m like, “Why don’t everybody do that? I don’t know.”

David:
What if you rebranded your coffee to be beardy bonding brew?

Brandon:
Beardy bondy brew. I like this idea. This has been great, phenomenal. Thank you so much for being here today. And we’re going to go get some food in Vegas, so let’s go do that. David, why don’t you ask your final question? Then we’ll get out of here.

David:
Last question, where can people find out more about you?

Maria:
Well, I’m the most active on Instagram, @marialovesrealestate is my handle.

Brandon:
Maria loves real estate.

Maria:
Yeah, I love it.

Brandon:
I did suggest that she change her name to… What was it? It’s the “The Sound of Music” [inaudible 01:15:35] line, right? “How do you solve a problem like Maria?” That’s what I thought your Instagram should’ve been. But it doesn’t really fit with anything.

Maria:
Do you remember the one word you told me that when you think about me comes to mind?

Brandon:
No.

Maria:
Feisty.

Brandon:
Feisty, yeah. Feisty, there you go. Maria the feisty. All right, so Instagram. We’ll put links to that, of course, in the show notes at biggerpockets.com/show whatever number this is. I don’t even know still, to this day. But yeah, that’s all we got. Thank you.

Maria:
Thank you for having me.

Brandon:
Thanks for being vulnerable and for sharing your wisdom and just for being awesome and feisty.

Maria:
You guys rock, thank you.

Brandon:
You rock. David? You rock, too.

David:
Thank you. Appreciate it, man. All right, this is David Greene for Brandon beardy brew coffee Turner, signing off.

 

 

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Source
Building a $2M Portfolio While Raising 2 Kids w/ Maria Friström is written by The BiggerPockets Podcast for www.biggerpockets.com

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